"SteveLehto" (stevelehto)
09/10/2015 at 09:00 • Filed to: None
6
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"SteveLehto" (stevelehto)
09/10/2015 at 09:00 • Filed to: None | 6
| 40 |
The topic of car titles comes up from time to time in my line of work, and I write about them as well. If you’ve ever owned a vehicle, you’ve dealt with a title. And there’s a lot to know about them.
To many people, titles are simply afterthoughts in a transaction. You agree to buy a car, shake hands, deliver money and then you get a title. Bad things can happen if you don’t !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .
And !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! if you don’t follow up on the title transfer. Again, I know because I have spoken to a lot of people who have gotten burned because they weren’t vigilant after a sale. Will bad things happen to you if you don’t understand titles? Maybe not. But why take chances? Educate yourself and do what you can to avoid trouble in the first place.
I’ve condensed a lot of information about titles into this week’s podcast. Not all of it will apply in every state but I guarantee you that something in this podcast will help you one way or another. So here you go:
The audio:
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And the video:
Follow me on Twitter: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!
Hear my podcast on iTunes: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!
Steve Lehto has been practicing law for 23 years, almost exclusively in consumer protection and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! He wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .
This website may supply general information about the law but it is for informational purposes only. This does not create an attorney-client relationship and is not meant to constitute legal advice, so the good news is we’re not billing you by the hour for reading this. The bad news is that you shouldn’t act upon any of the information without consulting a qualified professional attorney who will, probably, bill you by the hour.
RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
> SteveLehto
09/10/2015 at 09:04 |
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It’s important to know what a car’s title is so you know how to accommodate them properly. If your car is a Duke, it needs a much bigger garage. King Midgets, it’s more about quality of accomodation than quantity.
Land Rovers leaking oil in your garage, taking first right of stain, is also known as
drain de signeur.
StalePhish
> SteveLehto
09/10/2015 at 09:23 |
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If you’ve ever owned a vehicle, you’ve dealt with a title.
Not necessarily! In the state of New Hampshire, old cars don’t have titles. I currently own a 1987 Fiero GT with no title. And before that, I had a 1984 Fiero 2M4 with no title.
My 84 got stolen from a friend-of-a-friend’s driveway where it was being stored prior to making it a Lemons racer with the (expired) registration paperwork still inside. I found out that the city hall had made a typo on the VIN doing the registration so the actual VIN traced back to the previous owner’s name and mine wasn’t anywhere on it, even though I had owned the car for several years. No paperwork trail tying me to the car, so the Massachusetts local police (from where the car was stolen from) wouldn’t even let me report it stolen!
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SteveLehto
> StalePhish
09/10/2015 at 09:26 |
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Paper title, yes. The title to the car still exists.
The Dummy Gummy
> SteveLehto
09/10/2015 at 09:54 |
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Awesome sound clip. This has always been my fear in terms of selling a car. I’ve read so many, probably not frequent, horror stories where the person buying doesn’t change the title over and then commits a crime in the car and it falls on the seller.
I know it is foolish, but I tend to lean towards taking the hit on value and sell to a car dealership to not deal with the stress.
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StalePhish
> SteveLehto
09/10/2015 at 10:10 |
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Where does it exist?
To sell a pre-1999 vehicle here, you just need a bill of sale (which could be written on a napkin!) with the owner’s signature, and their previous registration with both your names signed on the back. You take it to the DMV and pay your registration tax, then they print the new registration under the buyer’s name and give you your new plate number. It’s “in the system” under your name as being registered, if that’s what you mean, but there’s no “certificate” of title involved.
From http://www.nh.gov/safety/divisio… :
Vehicles that have a model year of 1999 or older are not titled, except for heavy trucks with three (3) or more axles.
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SteveLehto
> StalePhish
09/10/2015 at 10:16 |
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Well, “title” to something is a legal concept. So it doesn’t “exist” in that sense. If I lost my Certificate of Title, I still own my car. Same with the deed to a house: you can burn it but you still have title to the property.
Technically, what most people call a car’s “title” is the Certificate of Title - the piece of paper which memorializes the title in an official capacity.
I have heard about how NH does not issue title certificates on older vehicles, but the vehicle you own does have a “title” in that you own it. The evidence of the title is just in a different form.
And, I assume, causes all kinds of problems for owners of older cars.
TheChafing
> SteveLehto
09/10/2015 at 10:22 |
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Something else that might be relevant to add here is that in some states (Texas being the one I’m most familiar with), you absolutely HAVE to have one of a few special forms filled out properly and signed by the seller in order to transfer a title. The most common one is basically an official bill of sale, but they have others for situations where the vehicle is being given as a gift and so forth.
If all you got is a handwritten bill of sale, the county tax collector’s office is going to tell you to go get the seller to fill out and sign this form, and will refuse to help you until you do.
The bottom line being that in addition to the title itself, you need to know the law in your state, and what the procedure is for title transfers, as there may be other documents that are just as important as the paper title document itself.
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StalePhish
> SteveLehto
09/10/2015 at 10:23 |
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One of those problems being that if you lose your registration paperwork and they made a typo on the VIN, it’s difficult to prove you ever owned it! The car was barely worth anything so it wasn’t worth fighting, but I’ve always been curious as to where my Fiero ended up. I imagine it was brought to a chop shop. I still have both sets of car keys! The Haverhill, Massachusetts police brought me into basically an interrogation room and were asking me all kinds of questions implying that I had something to do with its disappearance, and were basically not at all helpful.
I’ve always wondered how much of a problem it would be if I tried to sell the 87 Fiero I do still have across state lines into Massachusetts, where a title is required.
Wrong Wheel Drive (41%)
> StalePhish
09/10/2015 at 10:27 |
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How would you ever move with the car to another state? Or sell it in another state? I would imagine either of these things would represent a major headache.
AMG OMG
> SteveLehto
09/10/2015 at 10:33 |
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SteveLehto
> TheChafing
09/10/2015 at 10:33 |
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Yes. It is amazing how this varies from state to state. Michigan USED TO require notarized signatures on titles but they don’t anymore. But some states do. And once you have handed the money to the seller, they have much less incentive to help you with little paperwork issues.
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AMG OMG
> AMG OMG
09/10/2015 at 10:40 |
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And the day is mine!
SkookumFord
> SteveLehto
09/10/2015 at 11:07 |
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Dealing with this right now. My roommate bought a gorgeous new EBR 1190RX on clearance from a dealer in Florida and road it 400 miles back to South Carolina. Even though they knew he was coming to buy it, and the price and everything had already been worked out, they didn’t have the title ready when he arrived. They promised to mail it to the DMV in SC, but here we are, 3 months later, no title. The DMV says they never got it and the dealer insists they have delivery confirmation for 21 June...
jefe2
> StalePhish
09/10/2015 at 11:29 |
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I’m from Maine, with a similar cutoff, and in an attempt to sell a 1983 Mercedes to a Massachusetts resident the MA RMV just needs a registration and bill-of-sale from a state where they know the title rules are different. Apparantly the “interstate commerce” cause of the US constitution requires them to honor my paperwork.
GLiddy
> Wrong Wheel Drive (41%)
09/10/2015 at 11:31 |
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When you go to a new state, you simply produce evidence of title. The explanation that the state the vehicle came from did not issue certificates of title should be sufficient for not having one. That’s not to say that you should not bring evidence of title, such as insurance documents, bill of sale, and prior registration in your name. The new state would necessarily do a VIN check and if it all looks good, issue you a certificate of title.
I’m just knowledgeable enough now to be dangerous, having just finished a real estate course, so I had to learn a few things about real and personal property and title. We didn’t get into why it is, but we learned that real property is conveyed by title, while personal property is conveyed by bill of sale (at least in the real estate world). I suppose that the state laws enact that some personal property (like vehicles) must be conveyed by title, and the state’s issue certificates that are undisputed evidence of title.
ateamfan42
> SteveLehto
09/10/2015 at 11:47 |
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One issue with your suggestion to have the title transfer completed at the DMV/BMV/etc. is that the seller will have to make two separate trips to that soul-sucking place (at least in some states).
In Maine, before you can register your purchased car with the state (at the BMV), you must first pay the excise tax at the local town/city office. Only then can you proceed to the BMV to pay the sales tax and regsitration fees. Typically, that is when the new owner submits the application for title as well.
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DamnTheNoise
> SkookumFord
09/10/2015 at 11:58 |
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If this was a new vehicle purchase the dealer can request an MSO from the manufacturer....oh wait this is an orphan. Uh, steve, you better handle this one...
If this was a used bike purchase, the dealer can request a duplicate title from the DMV. In FL.
Vic788
> SteveLehto
09/10/2015 at 12:14 |
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IL title - Duplicate/correctable mean ? = salvaged ?
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Vic788
> AMG OMG
09/10/2015 at 12:15 |
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SteveLehto
> ateamfan42
09/10/2015 at 12:31 |
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It’s all a matter of cost/benefit analysis. Might not be possible or fun in some places. So, make a judgment call (but know the risk!)
Mercwri
> SteveLehto
09/10/2015 at 13:20 |
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NY lacks a title also for older cars, my 67 Bug just has a “Transferable Registration” in my name. The car is Transfered just by signing the back of it, but I’ve never actually seen DMV even look at the back.
When I bought my Bug the DMV actually transfered the to totally wrong car to me, I had to sort it out between my DMV office and Albany!
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SteveLehto
> Mercwri
09/10/2015 at 13:39 |
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I’m fascinated by the concept of the states without certificates of title for older cars. It must cause all kinds of problems regarding transfers of stolen and possibly-stolen and/or just questionably-owned cars.
Dr. Steve Brule
> SteveLehto
09/10/2015 at 13:44 |
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I had to drop $60 on a duplicate car title for a recent purchase because the signatures for the buyers weren’t Primary/left Secondary/right. Fuck the NJDMV.
the dude
> SkookumFord
09/10/2015 at 14:23 |
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No Titley, no money...
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Wrong Wheel Drive (41%)
> GLiddy
09/10/2015 at 16:03 |
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“The explanation that the state the vehicle came from did not issue certificates of title should be sufficient for not having one.”
That assumption right there is typically the beginning of most DMV horror stories lol. I can just imagine walking in to my local DMV and saying ‘I bought this car from a state without a title, what do I need to provide to register the car’ and the response would likely be ‘a title’. Going to the DMV with all of the proper paperwork and documentation is scary and difficult enough!
But yeah, logically your explanation definitely makes sense to me.
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Mercwri
> SteveLehto
09/10/2015 at 19:02 |
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I think it has purely to do with the how few of those cars are still extant and routinely sold.
This is the bitter North East, and specifically Long Island is an Island in the middle of a salt ocean, that gets Hurricanes and Blizzards. We
are
rust, I think NYS just assumes that there aren’t enough old cars on the road to even care. IIRC the cutoff is 1979.
PartyPooper2012
> SteveLehto
09/11/2015 at 08:47 |
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Steve, great bit of info. Now you got me paranoid. I sold a car in February but of course I didn’t go to DMV with the buyer. Buying and selling usually happens on a weekend when we have more time and DMV is of course closed then.
What can one do to let state know the car is sold and I am no longer responsible for anything that happens with it?
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Kenneth
> SkookumFord
09/11/2015 at 09:10 |
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Happened to my Father-in-law buying a CPO Volvo in Florida to Virginia. It turned out that the Volvo dealer had a lien on the title and used his money to float the business. They kept issuing him 30-day temp tags. He had to threaten to send the FL Attorney General on them before they straightened out.
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SteveLehto
> PartyPooper2012
09/11/2015 at 09:22 |
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Depends on what state you are in. Some states have no other mechanism besides the transfer itself. So you may just have to hope they did the transfer. Checking might cost a couple of bucks but it might be worth doing.
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PartyPooper2012
> SteveLehto
09/11/2015 at 10:16 |
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Thanks. I’m going with the old trusty crossing of the fingers. Going forward, I’ll be dragging the buyer with me to DMV. Poor shmuck will have to wait hours!
Demon3PWood
> SteveLehto
09/14/2015 at 10:36 |
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Sorry for the unrelated post but I figured posting it here would be the only chance I had at getting a reply. I’m hoping for some advice (either from a legal mind or from anyone who may have had a similar experience).
About 4 years ago I decided to purchase the car that was my dream car when I was in high school (Thankfully I didn’t own it then because wrecking my 93 Saturn was heartbreaking enough.) It’s a 2000 model year with low miles which is perfect because it’s new enough to be fairly reliable and old-school enough to still allow me to do some light wrenching.
Anyway, about 4-5 months ago I brought my car into a local detail shop that was rated highly from multiple sources. I had some light scratches/swirl marks and a few door dings. After talking to the owner, he convinced me to splurge and pay for extra polish time and go with the ceramic protection, which is supposed to protect the paint for 2 years. I get the car back and initially I have mixed feelings. The car shines much better (like maybe slightly more than if I had just waxed it) and they did an excellent job on the door dings but there are some areas that still show fine scratches (that aren’t through the paint) and some spots that we had talked about that hadn’t been touched up. I figured maybe my expectations were just too high so I have them put some touch up paint on the spots we talked about and call it good.
Fast Forward to today: I notice that there are now little white dots starting to appear all over my black car like someone sprayed white spray paint above the hood. They are tiny paint chips that have started appearing in the 1-2,000 miles I’ve driven it since then (and not the 20,000 I’ve driven it the 3 years prior). So in my opinion at the very least this Opti-Coat that I spent an extra $300 ($700 total) on has failed to protect my paint, and at the worst; it (or something else relating to their detailing) has made the paint weaker and subject to easy chipping/scratches. I have not taken the car back in yet. My biggest concern is fixing (or at the very least preventing further damage that could eventually rust, although it’s only driven in summer in good weather so hopefully that wont be the case for a while.) but I’m afraid that to truly “Fix” it I would need an expensive respray. Has anybody run into anything like this before? Any suggestions on what my next action would be? Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.
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SteveLehto
> Demon3PWood
09/14/2015 at 10:50 |
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I have never heard of that. I would suggest you take it back to them and see what they say. Either way, it would be best to give them the opportunity to fix it. If they cannot fix ir or claim it is not their fault, you will need to take it elsewhere and find out 1) what caused it and 2) what it will take to repair. Once you know those two things you will have a better idea of which way to go on this.
Good luck.
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Demon3PWood
> SteveLehto
09/14/2015 at 13:46 |
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Steve,
Thank you for your response. I really appreciate it. I will post an update with what they say. If it gets to this point: does anybody have a shop/paint specialist that they would recommend in the metro-Detroit area? Someone who 1) could tell me what caused the problem and 2) could correct it if the original shop cannot.
Thanks
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SteveLehto
> Demon3PWood
09/14/2015 at 13:47 |
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All I know is that Autometric is the best. The question is how expensive they might be.
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jefe2
> SteveLehto
09/14/2015 at 17:33 |
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It also causes “solutions”, like Broadway Title, to whom you “sell” your barn find, pre 1995 car, then their Maine Dealer “sells” it back to you, and you get a Maine registration with your out-of-state home address. This supposedly “flips” in your home state to a title, reg, the whole 9 yards.
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SteveLehto
> jefe2
09/14/2015 at 17:35 |
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I’ve heard of this but never actually known anyone who had done it. Sounds a little shady . . .
lochaber, guillotine enthusiast
> SteveLehto
09/15/2015 at 01:50 |
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I recently found out that I never got the title to my motorcycle, and it still is owned by the lending company.
Any clue on how to go about retrieving this? I bought the motorcyle over a decade ago, transferred the loan to my bank, and then paid it off after about 2 years...
I haven’t been able to find and standard form letters for this sorta thing, so I’m guessing it’s not terribly common. I know I should have been more aware of this stuff, but I wasn’t, and am trying to get it straightened out now.
Thanks in advance for any advice/info.
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Demon3PWood
> SteveLehto
09/15/2015 at 10:16 |
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If they offer to refund some or all of the money but not fix the paint should I take it?
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SteveLehto
> Demon3PWood
09/15/2015 at 10:22 |
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That’s a judgment call. Them offering you money is always a huge deal because it so rarely happens (and is so much less expensive etc than litigation). Just a matter of how much they offer you versus how much it will cost to repair.
Lea
> SteveLehto
09/16/2015 at 00:50 |
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I also asked the same question on the older articel about selling your car, but i just going to ask it again:
I am selling my car, and because of nostalgica (long roadtrip and first car ever) I would like to take the licensce plates back home to europe with me. Right now i live in California. Is there any way to do that? I would be really happy about an answer =)